S4 E3: The Impact of Building A Farm Brand with Mary Pat Sass

Jan 30, 2023


Show Notes

In agriculture, we are often reminded that it’s important to tell our story. We have more digital tools and free services to amplify our voices than ever before, while at the same time it feels harder to know where to start in such crowded, loud place like social media. Mary Pat (MP) Sass, a farm wife, entrepreneur and agricultural social media influencer shares stories and practiced tips for breaking through the noise.  

When it comes to social media, its best to go into it with a simple strategy. One tactic that MP follows and suggests is identifying your key pillars of content. These are topics that you feel comfortable talking about and want to use as a representation for yourself or operation. Once you identify your pillars, preferably 1-3,  make sure all of your content fits into those pillars. To be successful in sharing your story, keep it simplified to the parts of your life/business that fit into your pillars so your audience knows what to expect.  

Wondering where to start? There are many things to consider when choosing a platform to share on. Consider your strengths; written words, photos, videos, and audio are all options in deciding where to start. From there, keep it simple and just pick one platform.  

"Strategically, I would say choose one platform to master before you get on multiple. So whether you're going to be a Twitter person, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, wherever you're comfortable or wherever you want to be, start there and don't try to spread yourself out across platforms until you master one." Mary Pat said. 

Once you have your pillars and platform, work to provide value to your listeners through storytelling and showing up consistently. To learn more about MP’s tips, including how you can make money with your brand online, tune into our full episode here.  

PS - We’re doing a give away! We will be giving away 3 Grounded Journals to listeners who leave us a review! Send us a screen shot of your review by 2/13/23 to be entered to win!  


Morgan Seger (00:03):
Every day we rely on food, fuel, and fiber. But how much do you know about these industries we depend on? In this podcast, we dive deep into the production and processes of these everyday essentials. This is field points and original podcast production from Ceres Solutions. Welcome to Field Points. I'm your host, Morgan Seger. In this series, we have been focusing on branding, marketing, and living out your tagline. Today we have a special guest who is someone who has figured out how to leverage digital marketing to grow a personal and farm brand. I'm excited to introduce this conversation to you with Mary Pat Sass. Again, I will be joined by my co-host Drew Garretson, who's a chief marketing officer with Ceres Solutions. Throughout this conversation, Mary Pat shares several valuable pieces of information for getting started on your digital brand journey and some real life examples of what has worked for her and when she's had to pivot or change directions. We also have an exciting announcement about something that she is launching tomorrow, and with that we will be doing a giveaway. So make sure you stick around to the end of the episode for all of the details. Now let's meet Mary Pat as she shares her background and how she transitioned from working in agronomy to being a digital influencer and a entrepreneur.
Mary Pat Sass (01:21):
I'm Mary Pat Sass. I'm a farm wife and mom in northern Illinois. My husband and I farm with his family. There's two brothers or well three brothers total and their dad that farm together in northern Illinois. We have mostly corn and soybeans, little bit of wheat and some hobby livestock. I guess this is funny talking to you guys because we all used to work together at one point, but I come from an agronomy background. I actually grew up on a dairy farm, went to college for ag business and crop science and ended up working for an agronomy company on the ag tech side. Really enjoyed that until I became a mom and my whole life flip flopped over and I decided to stay home with my son. And about maybe three months after I was home with him, I decided I wanted to do something on the side and I started a social media channel, which I've grown over the past three and a half years into something else that's been income earning for our family.
I left without a plan to bring in any income. It was a shock to our family because that same year my husband and I took on more acres, so it was just a lot more risk and I was bringing in a good 50% of what we were making every year. So we had to figure out if we could do it first of all. So we had to decide if it was something financially that we could do and once we found out we could, I just planned to not bring in any money, but we kind of tightened our budget and everything. Had a different plan going forward in our life and I guess I could say something else, we really adjusted were our goals as a couple. We had different things that we wanted to do to our house. We had goals for acquiring land and stuff like that.
And we just shifted those goals because we decided that the time with our family was more important to us, put a lot of energy into what I did and I really enjoyed it. I very easily let things consume me. I know that's a personality trait. It's nothing to do with the company or anything. I just needed something on the side. And so I actually started just sharing off of a funny story that happened to us one day during planting. My husband called me and he was being all weird on the phone and I knew something happened, but I didn't know what, and finally he said, he told me he ran over his lunch with the tractor and he was wondering if I could bring him out another lunch. And it looks like yeah, I guess. But it was just really funny. I ended up bringing out a lunch for all of us and we spent the day in the tractor and that was really the day where I was like, we do some pretty fun things around here and I know that we have a story to share.
There's other ag influencers that I followed on social media that I really looked up to and I was inspired by them to start telling our own story. So I started there, really spun my wheels for the first six months, didn't really know what I was doing, didn't make any traction. I'm sure friends and family who were watching what I was doing were like, why is she spending so much time doing this and not going anywhere with it? But anyway, I took it more seriously about six months after I started it and decided to invest in some courses to learn how to grow an audience and how to tell your story effectively. And that's really when I started seeing growth. It still took a lot of time and perseverance to get anywhere after that, but learning a few strategies really did help. And also in the meantime I started a business selling cheese in between there. So we kind of went all over the place and I'm trying to refocus down now at this point in my experience, into something even more streamlined for what I've been doing. So
Drew Garretson (04:55):
How did you convince your family to be, I'm going to use the word characters in the story, right? I'm sure that's what, but cause obviously mean you kind of peel back the curtain a little bit be it's personal, right? You get into kind of see what's happening, I think because the authenticness of it is what makes it exciting for the audience, but how did you convince them that it's okay for them to be a part of the story? Cause I see so many families in agriculture who are, they're so humble, they have an awesome story to tell, but they really aren't interested in being in front of the camera or telling their story. How did you convince them that it's going to be okay?
Mary Pat Sass (05:38):
I'll tell you, it's something that we still talk about and revisit as a family cast of characters is actually a term that we used in learning about social media. So you're right in calling them characters. But I will say we farm, like I said with my husband, his two brothers and their dad. And I don't really expose my audience a whole lot to the family past my husband that much because first of all, I don't want them to feel like they're being forced into it and I haven't really had a conversation with them except for when I'm doing project by project, are you willing to help me with this? But we don't have that conversation. So it's mostly just my husband and my kids. So I guess kids wise, my husband and I had a conversation on if we were okay with them showing up and it was fine in the beginning.
The further that we've grown, we've set some different boundaries as to what we share about them and stuff. So that's been a couple decision. Josh doesn't actually like to be on camera at all, but he'll do it for me because he loves me and that's pretty much the short of it. But I think like you said, it does bring in the authenticity when we're able to have the family involved in the more that I've been able to be involved on the farm, the more that he's showing up alongside me in the different things that I'm learning to do something that we constantly revisit. And there was a time where Josh was showing up weekly on my stories. He was doing Takeover Tuesdays and it ended up being something that he just wasn't really interested in doing and I didn't want to force him to. And you could even tell that people weren't enjoying it because he wasn't in it. So I just was like, you know what? It's okay, we don't have to do it like this. We can just share you as you're comfortable. And he's probably uncomfortable a lot of the times I share him. But yeah, <laugh>
Morgan Seger (07:23):
Next, Mary Pat walks us through how they determine what type of content is working for their audience and when they need to pivot with their content strategy.
Mary Pat Sass (07:32):
Yeah, I think it will show up in your numbers if you're looking at different analytics because once you dive into you, I mean I'm sure you've, you guys know, but for the listeners, when you start a platform, you're able to really view analytics on everything you share. And I don't get too nitty gritty, but every once in a while I audit myself and go look at what I've shared and what's really taken off and what people haven't really resonated with. And I lean into those things that helped my message get across, even if it's not necessarily the topic I'm speaking of, but the method of delivery and if you're stories wise is what I was giving you as an example from what Josh was helping me with before. You can get those analytics daily too, and it's just like, are people dropping off because they aren't engaging with what you're sharing?
How can you be creative with how you're sharing so that people are engaging and not getting, I don't want to say bored, but you want to keep 'em involved in what you're sharing. But I think one thing that always surprises me is people like to know or to be anticipating what you're going to share. So for example, we call them stickers I guess in the training world of social media because I've done a little bit of coaching myself for other people who want to do social media and basically they're things that become your thing that people know you for. So for example, people know me for cheese, that's one of my stickers I guess you could say. Just whenever it's, it's stuff that when people see it in the store or in another ad, they think of you because they see it. It's like people will send me cheese memes and different cheese shredders and different cheese slicers because they think of me when they see it. Other things that we're kind of known for is monochrome outfits has Josh always wears brown on brown or blue on blue and I make fun of him for it. So people, whenever they wear monochrome, they tag us in it. And it's just different ways for people to associate you outside of your actual platform.
Drew Garretson (09:29):
How do you associate the way that you are telling the story with your brand? You kind of have your family's brand and the values that you have. You have the farm and then you have the cheese. Those are, in my mind, those are the three things that I see. I'm thinking about the audience who may be listening here, they don't know how to get started and they're thinking, well, how do I help tell the story of my brand? And I didn't set out intentionally to have a brand, but I know that I do. How do you think about the brand and what part of the story that you are trying to tell?
Mary Pat Sass (10:09):
When somebody goes about starting a presence on social media, they think of who they are and they think of all these different parts of themselves. So this is how I started. I was like, oh man, I'm a mom. I love to cook. I love to craft. I love to be on the farm. I have all of these different facets of my life that I love and I want everyone to know about 'em. And it's just too much for an audience to understand. And even for what you just explained, I feel like that's too much for some people to understand the different facets of what I share. So the more honed in on a message that you can get, the more clear your message will be. So there's a lot more to us than what I share on social media, but I'm very focused in on my pillars of content are basically what it is.
So I share about our farm life. I do share about being an entrepreneur and I share about being a mom, but I don't share about my girls trip that I took last weekend. I don't share about these different crafting. I don't go into, we don't share that we remodeled our basement last year if we do it's little snippets in our stories, but it's not really common for me to do that in my regular content. And it shows with my audience too, because that isn't really something that they've come to me for. So not saying that you can't start a brand and change and evolve over time, I think that's totally normal and what should happen, the more you can hone in on something that you're going to focus in on, the easier it will be for people to understand and follow along.
Drew Garretson (11:35):
What are the pillars that you look at for yourself?
Mary Pat Sass (11:39):
Yeah, I'd say farm entrepreneur and motherhood. And then everything that I share falls under some subset of that category, of those categories.
Drew Garretson (11:51):
How did you determine that
Mary Pat Sass (11:52):
Over time? Just feeling out what I was the most comfortable sharing. I think even if your audience isn't responding to what you're the most passionate about sharing, you need to share to the person that you're trying to attract. I think I would say the person that I'm talking to is the fellow farm wife and mom who's trying to figure out what they want to do in life, what they want, if they want their world to be more involved on the farm or not, how they're connected to the farm, really that is my person, is the mom in my shoes or the young woman who might be getting there in the next five to 10 years. And if I'm trying to talk to somebody like the 60 year old man who's getting ready to retire, that's not my person. So I do try to think about that as I'm forming my content, but also it's very easy to come up with the pillars too. When I think about the person that I'm trying to relate to the most
Morgan Seger (12:47):
Next, Mary Pat walks us through the impact that sharing their story online has had for their family and their farm.
Mary Pat Sass (12:56):
I mean, financially it's been a blessing now that we've gotten to that point, but it took several years to get to that point. I feel encouraged by my audience because I feel like I'm, every day I'm trying to wake up and be my best self and there's some days that doesn't happen, but I'm trying hard not for my audience, but it's making me feel like I have a story that I can share because I'm working towards this finding happiness every single day. But I guess for our farm, I mean it definitely hasn't changed how we do our business. We just share what we do and why we do it. And we've evolved as we've evolved, not because of me sharing on Instagram or anything like that. So I don't know. I think it's just helped us to share our message and be a family farm face behind a conventional farmer. And it's not the picture that the average everyday American person I feel like sees when they think about a conventional farmer.
Drew Garretson (13:46):
We were talking about that actually earlier when we were recording another episode of why it's important for farmers to consider using storytelling and branding and looking at these things. You know, think about the future, the legacy of the operation, how these types of things will become more important for them to do. Do you think that your family's farm intentionally sets out to seek opportunities to tell their story, or do you think it's just, it's somewhat authentic and we're going to do it and we believe that there's a benefit? We don't know what it is yet, but it's there.
Mary Pat Sass (14:25):
I don't like generalizing populations, but farm families are, like you said, very reserved. They don't really want people in their business and honestly, there's a lot that I don't share because not everybody needs to know, but I think by shutting ourselves off from the general public we have, it opens up everyone else to tell our story and to build a narrative on what we're doing. So I do think it's important and I think about the next generation all the time and what it's going to be like for, and I can't say that I feel too good about it yet. I mean, every day I get messages from people that I have to just ignore because it would stop me if I let it get to me, and I don't really know if there's, that's a pretty discouraging message to share with your audience. I just think we're 2% of the population and of that 2%, how many are actually sharing their story? I mean, for me, I feel like a lot of us are, because that's like the majority of the people that I follow online, but I know that that's a very small percentage of the 2%.
Drew Garretson (15:23):
Yeah, so that's why I guess one of the things I was thinking is like, well, how does somebody get started? Say that we have an owner or a farmer that's an owner of Ceres who said, Hey, I probably need to, I have a logo on a shirt now. I've never had that before, right? You know, got to think about farms and they have brands now that they didn't have 10 or 15 years ago, but now they want to start taking it not just the sticker on the side of a truck, but they want to start to digitally start telling their story. What are some, you said, Hey, yeah, just keep it simple. Well, what are some really easy simple things to get started
Mary Pat Sass (16:04):
Strategically, I would say choose one platform to master before you get on multiple. So whether you're going to be a Twitter person, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, wherever you're comfortable or wherever you want to be, start there and don't try to spread yourself out across platforms until you master one. So I chose Instagram. It's where I was spending my most time consuming social media three and a half years ago when I started and I ventured into TikTok because I felt like I had a pretty good handle on Instagram and I was repurposing a lot of content, going over to TikTok, reaching a different audience. I think that's really important is to kind of hone in on one platform to start with and then message wise, I think mean you can go down all the way to just thinking about what you're really confident in speaking on. I'm trying to think. I know there's accounts out there that just talk about one topic, like GM O answers just talks about GMOs and different facts on GMOs. So for me, I don't do a ton in livestock because we're mainly growing crops, so my focus is crop production and agronomy. But I think honing in on, if you're looking at pillars, if you just start with one pillar, that's plenty. And really thinking about how can I get my message across? And then if you want to bring in other pillars later you can,
Morgan Seger (17:23):
Telling and engaging story can be hard work. Mary Pat walks us through some of the tips that she's learned on improving storytelling. Well,
Mary Pat Sass (17:32):
I think it's definitely the honing in on the person that you're speaking to in talking in a language that they can understand. Another thing that's helpful for me, I guess is the place that I connect with my most faithful audience is in Instagram stories. Those are people that I know watch us the most often anyways. One strategy I guess that I've done is think about each day and what I have going on that day. And especially planting and harvest. I will take a bunch of footage throughout the day, but I won't share it until the end of the day when I can put together my story of what we did that day instead of having tons of stuff that bounces all over the place, I pick and choose the top five things or the top 10 things that I want to share about that day and put it into stories and have it follow a chronological timeline that makes sense. I think that's helpful.
Morgan Seger (18:21):
While influencers like Mary Pat make this look very easy, there is a lot of time that goes into creating and executing on these content strategies
Mary Pat Sass (18:30):
Depending on how serious they're going to take it. If you want to make it a business and make it something that can impact your family positively. I mean I spend probably, oh gosh, this is super rough because some weeks it's a lot more, it's probably between 20 to 40 hours a week on social media stuff, creation, get getting content sitting in my office thinking of ideas and that being out in the field I, and even just strategizing what you want to share and figuring out how you want to tell it. I think I would say at least this time of year, probably more like 20 hours, but in season it can be more. And the other part of the time that you spend is engaging with your audience and I never want to let that part of it go direct messaging, getting back to as many people as you can interacting in the comments. And I also spend time not, it depends on my time fluctuates with how I spend it, but also spending time interacting with other creators and going with their content and stuff like that. But I honestly can tell you I used to spend a lot of time consuming content and I don't spend nearly as much time consuming it anymore as I do creating and being in it with the mindset that I've had and as far as what is my brand and what is my story and sharing that
Morgan Seger (19:51):
Next, Mary Pat walks us through different ways you can make money online to recoup some of that investment that you have in your time.
Mary Pat Sass (20:00):
Some of the first things that I did were working with brands, so different agriculture brands, it can be anything from clothing to the big chem companies, anything in between. That was really the first thing that I got started with was actually bib overalls. I get a lot more serious about partnerships now and who I say yes to and who I choose to work with because I really do only choose brands that we use and really love and want to share. But as a farm, we also aren't brand agnostic. I don't know, I could tell you how many different brands we buy, but it's a lot, probably more than a lot of the customers that you guys work with. I would think just because I come from working with farmers and I know that we are probably on the higher end for how many different people we work with.
But anyway, so I share it from a standpoint of these are the things that we're doing and we're trying and we're seeing on our farm. We've done a couple different trials where we didn't know about the product before we got into the partnership with them. We have done product trials that way before but have been able to share our experiences authentically through those. So yeah, brand partnerships is one. Another one is affiliate marketing. So for example, if you have a certain kind of work boot that you really like or something, sometimes the companies will give you an affiliate link that you can get paid on for however many people click to buy that product through your link. And that's probably actually one of the easiest places for people to start because it's not like you're really agreeing to deliver any specific content for the brand, but it's more like you can share it how you want to as often as you want to.
And really size does not matter with affiliate marketing. I feel like how much your audience trusts you is what will determine if you're successful with that or not. And the other thing to think about is how often do you buy something because one of your friends told you they loved it, word of mouth type of thing. So if you can use that through your social media, even if you're like your most loyal people are your friends and family <laugh>, you can be getting a little commission off of that. I haven't done this, but there are different companies that will hire people to create content for them for their channels. So you don't necessarily have to have a big phone. And then the last thing that I would say is definitely the most important to me is creating something for yourself. So for me, I started the cheese business and that I didn't plan on shipping, but because I had a smaller social media following at the time I was able to ramp up shipping and ended up after a few short months, getting to a point where I had to limit the amount that I could sell with that business.
And I've had to limit it ever since I've been shipping. Probably the second shipment I did, I was already limiting orders because I was getting in over my head on it. So I think that's, see as creators, the longer they've been doing it, you'll probably see them create something for themselves just because they see, they know who they're speaking to, seeing a need for their audience. And that's why I'm starting a new business in January too. So with grounded journals and creating something for farm and ranch families to keep a way for them to keep their memories, that's definitely, I would say the one that will hold the most heart with people who are sharing from their own what they've built for themselves. So it's been definitely a project that's been on my heart for a long time. I actually started the process of creating it up last October, so 14 months of just planning and preparation.
And it kind of started because I've have a couple of journals for my kids that I got when they were babies and it's like asks you different prompts for their different ages and when they're a year, what was their favorite color, favorite toy, favorite game, just things to look back on. And it goes from zero to 18 years old, I had those journals and I was like, man, it would be really cool if there was something like this for farmers and ranchers to keep their stories. And also I don't know, there's another company called StoryWorth or something that helps people collect their memoirs from their grandparents and stuff. And I wanted a way to capture farm family stories and there wasn't anything that I had known of at the time out there that had prompts that were really specifically targeted to those of us in agriculture.
So I went about creating the prompts for the journals and then I had help, a lot of help designing and finding manufacturers and testing out who was going to be producing the book eventually. I'm now about a month away from launch. I think my books will be here probably right away in the new year, but I've got a crop farmer's yearly journal, a dairy farmer's yearly journal, and a farm and ranch memoir coming out. So there's kind of hitting different parts of my audience. But yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be a way for us to keep our memories in a simple way for us to record them so we don't have to sit down in front of a blank piece of paper and try to figure out what to write down. I really wanted it to be something where that person's handwriting was in a book and because I feel like we've just gone away from that so much in our digital age and it's old school, but very
Drew Garretson (24:50):
Cool. Congratulations.
Mary Pat Sass (24:51):
Thank you. I'm excited.
Drew Garretson (24:53):
My wife's grandpa is 99 years old. He still lives on the farm. He's getting ready to turn a hundred in October, and I'm telling you that guy has some unbelievable stories. He literally started farming with horses. Think about what the fully autonomous equipment basically that they're farming with today it's pretty cool and it's the amount of information and storytelling that he has. What I would give to capture that, that is one common thread you see amongst a lot of farm families is that family, that core family got you and the willingness to do whatever they have to do to kind of keep that thing going and the legacy that's associated with it. So yeah, I think pulling on something there, Mary, I think it'll be a big deal.
Mary Pat Sass (25:38):
And I'm hoping that the journal prompts help tell stories that haven't been told before. They might spark a memory for these people that are like, oh yeah, this happened. And then mind blown family moments. I just get so excited thinking about that part of it. And for even our own family, I started this out very selfishly wanting it for myself and our family. And when I actually was really funny, I had a copy of it made and I had my father and mother-in-law look at it and my father-in-law was like, wait, you're going to sell these? He was so surprised and I'm like, yeah, we don't want to just keep this for ourselves.
Drew Garretson (26:17):
Mary Pat Sass (26:17):
Exciting. I am the person that I'm not afraid to start something out of my garage. That's where my cheese business started. I plan to do that for now, but I'm planning to do the fulfillment and I'm actually testing some ways to personalize 'em too. I bought a laser engraver to see if I can get some personalization done. So if I can figure out how to get that all set up, that'll be an option too.
Drew Garretson (26:39):
There are three things that I think that you said Mary Pat, that I think will be very valuable for our audience. One of 'em was like, pick one platform, right? Don't try to match many. Be pick one pillar, find one thing that you want to talk about and start with picking that and then provide value to your audience through the storytelling part. So this kind of like Mary Pat's three P's, right?
Mary Pat Sass (27:04):
Yeah. You're good at picking that out Drew.
Morgan Seger (27:06):
Social media platforms are constantly changing and it's hard to know what's going to work for the algorithm day to day. Mary Pat shares some of the tips that she has for staying on top of these changes and what she expects in 2023.
Mary Pat Sass (27:21):
All the apps are always releasing new features and I don't know if it's fact or not, but they say if you try the new features, you will be shown to more people and hopefully rewarded with more people coming to you. So I mean, I haven't tested out all of the features. For example, I don't charge people's subscriptions to watch my content. That's not something I've chosen to do. But I do think that if you embrace the changes and also just what your audience is responding to and reassess that quite often, then you will be rewarded. If we're talking about Instagram in particular, they launched reels. I think it's been close to two years this coming spring, but people didn't really latch onto 'em until about a year and a half, like a yearish ago. What I found is reels are how I find people, new people that come into my audience, but the people, I get really good engagement on static photo posts and I think it's because those are the people that I've been around the longest and really engage with my content and I haven't put as much focus in that lately, but I'd like to get back to that.
I think it's a lot of value in that. Yeah, I think using the new features, what I see in 23 it's always hard to anticipate. I'm not sure, but I think anytime you're trying to be, this is another one to add to your p's, you're going to have to have four P's. Consistency. If you are not consistent, there's, you're not going to see the results that you want to see because people need to be seeing you. I mean, I'm not saying that it's not okay to take a break once in a while. If you want to take a week off, if you want to take a month off, that's fine, but you can't do it for a week. And if you see no results give up, it'll take a long time to start seeing results. And some people are very lucky and they see results very quickly, but that's not everybody. So consistency, showing up, staying persistent through it key.
Drew Garretson (29:05):
I'm very grateful for you taking the time Mary Pat to visit with small friends this afternoon.
Mary Pat Sass (29:13):
Yeah, this is fun.
Drew Garretson (29:15):
Well, Mary Pat, how can people find you?
Mary Pat Sass (29:18):
Mary Pat sas, pretty much everywhere. Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, I have a blog, Mary pat sas.com.
Drew Garretson (29:25):
Thank you.
Mary Pat Sass (29:25):
Yes, you're welcome you guys. Thank you.
Morgan Seger (29:29):
Well, that wraps up our series on marketing and branding. What did you think? We really appreciate MP taking the time to share all that she shared with us about having a successful presence on social media. So we have decided to purchase three of her journals to give away to our listeners. All you have to do is leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts, then send us a direct message on social media. So wherever you follow Ceres Solutions, let us know that you left us a review and you'll be entered into the drawing. We will be announcing the winners on Valentine's Day, 2023. Thanks also to my co-host Drew Garretson, and thank you to our listeners. We appreciate you spending this time with us and we look forward to sharing our next series with you that's going to focus on dairy nutrition. The show notes for this episode will be available at ceres dot c e r e s dot c o o p. If you enjoyed this deeper dive, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. Your review and feedback will help other listeners like you find our podcast and we are so thankful for that.


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